Playing our game
We in OUCH do bubble camps. A lot. We’re pretty good at it, too. We have students in lightly fitted frigates providing tackle, while operations members supporting with DPS and EWAR. It works well for an instructional corp as we introduce students to the world of null-sec EVE. Camps allow for multiple time zones to participate as well as allowing people to drop in and out as their real life dictates without too much disruption. Plus, they’re fun. With proper intel, losses should be few as the camp gets to dictate who and what is engaged.
We’re constantly berated, though, by locals, large fleets, and even some (former) alliance mates:
- Camping again? Isn’t that boring?
- That’s not real PVP
- Why don’t you engage us?
- ECM is for fags/gays/pansies/queers/etc
- You have a Falcon, so you’re being pussies for running.
- You use too much ECM.
- You’re teaching the wrong things
- That’s lazy
- That’s too easy
-Camping isn’t boring. If it was, I wouldn’t do it. Mining is boring. It is boring not because I sit in one place for hours; it is boring because it is mindless repetition. Camping isn’t mindless. If you are mindless, you die. You have to be aware of traffic at all times. We’ve been covert cyno’d and Titan bridged. Nothing gets the blood going when a BS fleet with a Thanatos drops on your head.
Some folks do get tired of camping, and they move on. That’s fine. Anyone can get tired of anything. If you think that you are bored with it, no problem. We have plenty of corps and Alliance mates that do other things. OUCH camps. Move on.
-What is PvP? Player versus player. We’re not ratting out there. We go up against other pilots. Some are unaware of our presence or make mistakes. Some are actively trying to kill us. How is that not PvP? What is the difference between a blob roam and a gate gank? If it isn’t PvP, what is it? Would we lose ships? And why do I have 629 kills to 48 losses? Why have I inflicted 20 ½ billion ISK of financial damage? Why have I lost 400 million ISK?
-We run when we do not have an advantage, pure and simple. Sun Tzu, the author of The Art of War, wrote:
III- Attack by Stratagem
…
8. It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy’s one, to surround him; if five to one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two.
9. If equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him.
10. Hence, though an obstinate fight may be made by a small force, in the end it must be captured by the larger force.
We have anywhere from 1 to 120 ship fleets roll through our corner of Curse. We can have anywhere from 1 to 20 camping at any given time. Why in the world would we engage a fleet bigger than ours? We have before, but with particular advantages. If we can provide overwhelming DPS, EWAR or other tactic, then we will. Some FCs are more confident in our abilities than others. When I first became an OUCH FC, I was very skittish. Nowadays, I tend to linger almost a bit too long, or wait too long to make a decision.
-ECM exists in game. I see gangs and fleets roll through with Falcons, Kitsunes and Blackbirds. They have a definite strategic value, either to prevent incoming damage/webs/scrams or to prevent EWAR from the opponent. Yes, it sucks to be jammed. I have been jammed in my Kitsune (yes, I’ve started to fly a few Caldari ships…eww) by a Falcon I was trying to jam. It sucks. However, that Falcon still died with no effective EWAR on our side. Why? Because ECM does not make for an automatic win. That pilot had to ensure he jammed me, thus not allowing for jams on the rest of my fleet. Which brings me to…
-Yes, we have a Falcon/Rook/Blackbird/Kitsune/Griffin. Maybe an additional one you don’t know about. However, just because an ECM ship exists does not mean we’re going to engage. ECM ships are almost always primary. Thus, we have to be pretty sure the high damage, long range ships will be jammed or taken out quickly. ECM ships don’t tank for shit. Their tank IS the ECM mod; their buffer is range. IF we don’t think our pricy ships will tank damage, why should we engage? Sometimes we’ll engage and not de-cloak a Falcon until certain ships are taken out.
-Too much ECM? That’s like saying “You use too much DPS” or “You have too much speed” or “You fit too much armor” or “You have too much logi”. This is usually said by gangs who have lost or have gotten run off by our measly camp. We were able to counter their speed advantage or logi advantage or whatever with some ECM. It is our advantage. We don’t always have ECM. But we wield it when we can.
Some of our opponents who know our advantage try (and are successful sometimes) different tactics, like hot drops, ECCM, drones and smartbombs. Cloaky Anathemas providing warp-ins on our Blackbirds are a threat, as well as a pair of bombers doing the bomb-then-torpedo tactics on ranged ships. There are ways. Complaining about getting owned by ECM is, well, just sour grapes.
-This should read “You guys don’t teach 1vs1 or roams”. That is true. However, we’re a null survival corp. We are not a PVP primary corp. PVP is just a part of null-sec survival. We teach on the bubble because it facilitates our Carebear noobs what shooting others is like. Roams are more complex, and very few honor 1vs1 in null, and even if they do, they know of an advantage that you don’t. Thus, newbies in T-1 ships will get podded quickly.
-Yes, camps are lazy in the sense that fishing or duck hunting is lazy. You sit there, shoot the shit, drink beer, and then get a few minutes of pure excitement. Then, it’s back to drinkin’ again. How many times have you been on a 30 jump roam and not able to engage anything? We just didn’t move. No, we didn’t have to deal with the headaches involved with scouting and moving ships about. And, seriously, dropping a dictor bubble on a gate to catch a straggler or two is exactly what we’re doing. We just don’t use the 10 Drakes, 4 Huginns and 5 Tempests and the Broadsword you have to do the killing.
-Come FC a camp with us on a busy Sunday afternoon and tell me that it’s easy. Afterwards, if you said it was, then we probably lost half the gang with a few kills. No, it isn’t like a 1200 ship megabattle. No, it isn’t like a 50 ship BS/BC fleet roving. And no, it isn’t a speed gang of Cynabals and Dramiels racing through systems. It may be less difficult than those, but not easy. Make sense?
Camping is an aspect of gameplay which we as a corp promote. It is our game, our EVE, that we choose to play. ECM is a utility that works very well in this sort of gameplay. It isn’t a perfect instant-win tactic. We lose ships, but we do kill a lot more.
Oh, and killing our bubbles is just a slight inconvenience, nothing more.
Fly like it is what you want to do.
-Ze
Things you should teach, as a Nullsec Survivalist corp:
1vs1/1vsN – Not necessarily to kill the other but to learn how to escape/survive. You are fooling only yourself if you don’t think this would happen in nullsec.
NvsN – Again, it happens. Unless you stay docked up all day, but then I could do that in highsec.
Combat without ECM – All other arguments aside, you *do* rely heavily on it, almost exclusively. It wouldn’t hurt to get into combat situations that don’t involve ecm and learn how to deal with it. Afterall, ECM may not always be at your disposable.
Also ECM is considered “unfair” because all you need is 1 falcon for every 2-4 enemies and their entire fleet is rendered ineffective. Sure there are ways around it, but generally not once you are jammed.
The problem is, you are a nullsec survivalist corp that only teaches a very specific and by no means comprehensive area of nullsec survival/combat. You say you follow the teachings of Sun Tzu but out of 13 chapters you have only read the first 3, all of which refer to planning. You cannot handle criticism whether it be those fleets that whine in local or a carefully constructed forum post intended to promote discussion about the continuing evolution of the Alliance (you know which one I speak of).
And don’t fool yourself into thinking that the alliance unanimously opposed what we wrote there. Several students mailed us privately to show support with our arguments, but were unwilling to speak publicly fearing backlash.
Those who go through our courses do learn how to escape/survive in null. From bookmarking to D-scan use, we teach those fundamentals on how to move about, and how to get away if things go awry.
Yes, we do rely heavily on ECM on an average day. Our KB stats prove that. But, that is our game, and we do preach it. We’re not Agony Unleashed, for sure. We don’t claim to be a PvP uni. We PvP in our OUCH way.
If you don’t agree with our methods, that’s cool. As far as the carefully constructed in-forum post, there was some misunderstanding there. What got the flame started was some individuals threatening one thing or another if the post were to be deleted. It went from smart to fail instantly, and the flame was on.
As far as Sun Tzu, let me quote from VIII 12:
There are five dangerous faults which may affect
a general:
(1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
(2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
(3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
(4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
(5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him
to worry and trouble.
I think some folks failed #3 and #4.
OUCH is an open corp. Folks can come and go as they please. We introduce students to 0.0 and provide a basis for continued learning. Our ideas and processes do not come out of thin air, but from people who have been playing the game much longer than I, from pirates and RvB experiences as well as Sov and FW. We stand by what we teach and the way we teach it. It would have been nice if some folks who disagreed provided direction, not criticism. And, yes, I am still waiting for those who bitch about camps to lead fleets and teach those unfamiliar how to roam and PvP. That hasn’t happened yet. And I’ve been waiting since March.
***This thread is closed. ***